Curse

Master Ketsu · Apr 05, 2007, 06:17 PM // 18:17

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Originally Posted by VitisVinifera

yet more pvp imbalance issues becoming pve's problem

predictable

Almost everything works in PvE. THe only PvE'ers who complain about PvP nerfs screwing them over are the ones who only run builds that do the work for them.

PvP needs to be balanced, PvE just simply needs to work.

Theus · Apr 05, 2007, 06:20 PM // 18:20

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Originally Posted by Macktar Wang

Paragons have the luxury of sitting in the mid-line with the armor of a warrior (AL = 80) and the range of a ranger (AL = 70). I don't see how bringing their armor level down to the level of a ranger would be "class killing." I'm sure he isn't suggesting Paragons to come down to the armor class of a caster (AL = 60).

70 wouldn't be bad,considering they have Inscriptions that add addtional armor while under the effects of a Shout/Chant/Echo,which theres a pretty good chance you will be,considering your class.

Arkantos · Apr 05, 2007, 06:22 PM // 18:22

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1. Glyph of lesser energy -- this wasn't overpowered so why the nerf?

That made me lol irl.

Evilsod · Apr 05, 2007, 06:23 PM // 18:23

I can't see the change to GoLE actually changing its use in the slightest. All it means now is that Aegis will actually cost energy and i can cast 10e skills without feeling bad about wasting -5e. Only SoR/Aegis are worth running in Prot that cost 15e, if you weren't running those 2 GoLE would always be partially wasted.

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Now with the added storage comming a paragon does not even have a viable use as a mule and there are still posts wanting them nerfed, funny

So what your saying is that after nerfing all your skills, Anet have finally gone and nerfed your paragon been used as storage?

Wow thats taking the piss.

Either way... can people please stop whining about how the mesmers is continually getting nerfed for PvE and just buy GWEN. The PvE only skills are quite obviously gonna aim to sort this out. With a bit of luck the under-appreciated characters will get the more powerful ones. Probably make Para the strongest char in the game...

Tbh, as far as i see it, a Paragon has 90 AL. Centurions insignia is an almost guaranteed +10 AL, throw on the shield and you have a nice 106 AL against everything. Its just a shame really that nobody has any reason to actually attack you because your next to worthless, anything you can actually do has either been nerfed, can easily be shutdown/interrupted or isn't really noticable.
The only use i saw of a Paragon recently (think it was EW) running a P/Me with Expel Hexes/Mirror of Disenchantment (anti-Aegis i guess) who just spammed Go for the eyes as energy gain.

Siddious · Apr 05, 2007, 06:25 PM // 18:25

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Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

And they might possibly have gotten more buffs than other characters as well..

What's your point? Mesmer skill balance is delicate, as their skills often dont have as 'clear' purposes as damage or healing spells.

Most mesmer skills will never be used in PvE because shut down isn't really required, this doesn't mean they aren't extremely potent in PvP..

If they are supposedly 'Extremely Potent', then why is it that Mesmers only use a select few skills like Diversion in PVP but nothing else.

I would even say that if Diversion was taken out of PVP altogether, Mesmers would die out in PVP.

Rhedd · Apr 05, 2007, 06:25 PM // 18:25

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Originally Posted by Evilsod

2 questions. What pet controls? I don't see any :S

And what pet nerfs? They nerfed the Thumper, not the Beastmaster because that dazed was so stupidly strong.

Stop making mountains out of piles of dust.

I don't see any skill balances, either... yet. Obviously, by the wording of the post, we'll see pet controls in the next update, as well.

What pet nerfs? I was thinking of Disrupting Lunge, actually. It's an awesome skill that has never left my bar. I'd call doubling its recharge time a nerf.

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Originally Posted by ChaoticCoyote

You're not right, so feel better!

Seriously, *two* little-used skills get a *minor* nerf, and you're crying in your beer? The two interrupting pet attacks were SLIGHTLY nerfed since they might now be effective. Without pet controls, using a pet interrupt was a crap-shoot at best.

What about the *buffs?* Heck, I'm going to love Fluffy the Dune Lizard with his 104 armor (natural 80 + Otyugh's) and 16 damage reduction (Call of Protection).

And if you look at past threads, most beatsmasters *wanted* pet controls. And yes, I run at all times with my pet, for 1600 hours of gameplay.

Wow, you and Evilsod gave such... impassioned responses. ^_^

I must've hit a nerve or something, because I wasn't really complaining THAT much.

All I was saying is that pet controls have been discussed a lot in the past, and my position has always been that, while more control would be nice, I've learned to work with my pet over the last two years, and I'm afraid that if we have more control over them, people will start noticing how incredibly powerful some of the pet skills are.

In that, I was right. The very update which introduces (presumably) pet controls, nerfs two beastmaster skill because of the new controls.

I'm not "crying in my beer", but I'm sure hoping the trend won't continue. I've had a happy couple of years being overlooked by the nerfhammer. ^_^

I'm with you on the Otyugh's Cry, though. That, with CoP will make our pets unblockable, unkillable monsters! Woot!

The nice thing about that combo is that (again, presumably) with the new pet controls, we can actually send our pet in to aggro instead of drawing it ourselves, which will make them incredible PvE tanks.

Keithark · Apr 05, 2007, 06:36 PM // 18:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Macktar Wang

Paragons have the luxury of sitting in the mid-line with the armor of a warrior (AL = 80) and the range of a ranger (AL = 70). I don't see how bringing their armor level down to the level of a ranger would be "class killing." I'm sure he isn't suggesting Paragons to come down to the armor class of a caster (AL = 60).

they have the luxury of sitting in mid line with al-80 and the range of the ranger yes...but that is what they are doing, sitting because their skills suck so all they can do is live a little longer than the casters who actually get to do a little damage. I do not PvP but from what I read on here, nerfing paragons is due to teams putting several paragons on a team and shouting at each other to the point they cannot be killed ...why will a-net not nerf it properly and say no more than x# of p/X's on a team or make shouts not work on other paragons? Also everyone wants "balance" in PvP but nobody takes a "balanced" team..there are 10 classes and most PvP that I see in observer mode just have like 2 monks and 6 necros or whatever kind of spike they are running. Make it so you can only have 1 of each class per team and balance would be much easier to obtain and skills would not need any nerfing.

Evilsod · Apr 05, 2007, 06:37 PM // 18:37

In terms of the pressure Disrupting Lunge could put on casters it was ridiculous. From the moment you press it it affects the pets very next strike. So you could quite easily interrupt 3/4s skills if the pets attack was timed right. It was way too spammable, although tbh i think it should've been made identical to Distracting Shot.

Macktar Wang · Apr 05, 2007, 06:44 PM // 18:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keithark

they have the luxury of sitting in mid line with al-80 and the range of the ranger yes...but that is what they are doing, sitting because their skills suck so all they can do is live a little longer than the casters who actually get to do a little damage. I do not PvP but from what I read on here, nerfing paragons is due to teams putting several paragons on a team and shouting at each other to the point they cannot be killed ...why will a-net not nerf it properly and say no more than x# of p/X's on a team or make shouts not work on other paragons? Also everyone wants "balance" in PvP but nobody takes a "balanced" team..there are 10 classes and most PvP that I see in observer mode just have like 2 monks and 6 necros or whatever kind of spike they are running. Make it so you can only have 1 of each class per team and balance would be much easier to obtain and skills would not need any nerfing.

Paragons were designed to be more of a support character, not a main damage dealer, like a warrior. Their strength is in applying party buffs that CANNOT be stripped.

I am not going to touch that PvP balance part. I'll let the PvP players answer that one.

Kuja · Apr 05, 2007, 06:48 PM // 18:48

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Originally Posted by Siddious

Also Mesmers always get the crap end of the stick. Deal with it.

I thought thats what they wanted?

Rhedd · Apr 05, 2007, 06:49 PM // 18:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

In terms of the pressure Disrupting Lunge could put on casters it was ridiculous. From the moment you press it it affects the pets very next strike. So you could quite easily interrupt 3/4s skills if the pets attack was timed right. It was way too spammable, although tbh i think it should've been made identical to Distracting Shot.

I agree with your assessment of its power. (Although that "if the pet's attack was timed right" is a VERY big "if", that's not going to go away with new controls, I'm sure.) In comparison, Distracting Shot blows.

But then, that's my point; Nobody has ever really noticed dedicated Beastmasters. Everyone "knew" that pets sucked, and so nobody complained, and we beastmasters who knew better were very, very happy people. ^_^

Now, everyone pay attention to the shiny, swinging watch...

Pets suck...
Pets suck...
Pets need buffs, not nerfs...
Pets suck...

^_^

Ensign · Apr 05, 2007, 06:54 PM // 18:54

I don't understand the 'Paragons are useless in PvE' crowd at all. Is that a symptom of people hating physical damage in general, or am I missing something?

The Expel Hexes / Mirror of Disenchantment (and I had a Leech Signet as well) Paragon is one of my favorite Paragon bars. So much raw support power on a guy punching for 40 a hit. I agree with the 'reduce base armor to 70' sentiment, I just look at a Warrior funny when he runs up and starts attacking me.

Until the PvE community looks at skills and mechanics and says 'wow, this is too powerful', about *anything* on their own characters, it's safe to ignore them entirely in balance discussions.

Peace,
-CxE

Master Ketsu · Apr 05, 2007, 07:06 PM // 19:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keithark

they have the luxury of sitting in mid line with al-80 and the range of the ranger yes...but that is what they are doing, sitting because their skills suck so all they can do is live a little longer than the casters who actually get to do a little damage. I do not PvP but from what I read on here, nerfing paragons is due to teams putting several paragons on a team and shouting at each other to the point they cannot be killed ...why will a-net not nerf it properly and say no more than x# of p/X's on a team or make shouts not work on other paragons? Also everyone wants "balance" in PvP but nobody takes a "balanced" team..there are 10 classes and most PvP that I see in observer mode just have like 2 monks and 6 necros or whatever kind of spike they are running. Make it so you can only have 1 of each class per team and balance would be much easier to obtain and skills would not need any nerfing.

You dont PvP.

Dont make suggestions for PvP.

Making it so only 1 class per group was allowed would cause mass cookie cutters. Maybe no more then 5 of the same class per team would be ok, but max of 1 would ruin everything.

c00kie · Apr 05, 2007, 07:08 PM // 19:08

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Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

no one used spirit of failure in conjunction with diversion btw...

Spread SoF on the opposing team's attackers, and in tandem with another warrior-hate skill (e.g. blind, or guardian from another team member or whatever) you'll pretty much have enough energy to cast diversion (or any other moderately priced skill for that matter) on a regular basis.

Can't really do that after the nerf of SoF though.

assassin of the god · Apr 05, 2007, 07:16 PM // 19:16

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Originally Posted by Ensign

Until the PvE community looks at skills and mechanics and says 'wow, this is too powerful', about *anything* on their own characters, it's safe to ignore them entirely in balance discussions.

QFT. The PvE community is also too used to looking at and playing against terrible PvE monster bars, and not good builds and overpowered skill synergies.

MrTickle · Apr 05, 2007, 07:22 PM // 19:22

Buffing underused skills are a waste of time. They are underused for a reason.... cos they're shite and no amount of buffing will make us use them.

Nadia Roark · Apr 05, 2007, 07:26 PM // 19:26

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Originally Posted by Legendary Shiz

However, I believe ZB was going to get used a lot more commonly with the nerf of GoLE. Because now monks are left with basically 0 emanagement skills. ZB WAS really strong, but like you said not gamebreaking. Thus, I don't see the reasoning behind nerfing it.

QFT. Glyph + ZB was nowhere near as powerful as SR abuse; yet ANet allowed the latter to go on for months without perceiving a need to fix it--Glyph + ZB is being pounced upon at the first opportunity. I mean, it's not like Glyph/ZB monks were rolling all over everything in the first place: both abilities are reasonably easy to interrupt, and the net energy gain from this combo doesn't even begin to approach the utility that used to be found in skills like Channeling, Power Drain, or Drain Enchantment.

There was something (funny) in there about "diversifying monk elites" which is mystifying to me, since apparently this diversification is to take place by means of nerfing monk energy management. If you want to "Diversify monk elites" a good place to start would be to recognize that 90% of monk elites are complete garbage.

For this reason and a few others I have interpreted the "diversifying of monk elites" to mean "we want monks to run crappy skills." If you want to diversify monk elites (which should probably be done after you expand the viable elite skill options for, say, Rangers and Necros) don't make them worse, make the crappy ones better. RoF is still better than Life Sheath, and skills like Balthazar's Pendulum, Glimmer of Light, and Scribe's Insight have pretty much been trash from day one.

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RoA isn't that imbalanced imo, EW has a 60 second recharge and is really easy to kill, it got 'tweaked' in the wrong way though. (Nerf or remove the speedbuff from it and either increase the duration or reduce the energy cost, gives people an incentive to use Run As One too)

If you think RaO isn't imba, you obviously haven't been on the business end of it for 8 straight hours. Believe me, I've had plenty of opportunities to evaluate its power firsthand. If properly executed you still don't really even need EW with the right attribute spread. It remains by far the most powerful (and mindless) melee elite in the game. ANet talks big about eliminating the prevalance of "passive defense" with the nerf of skills like "Shields Up!" but they're evidently doing absolutely nothing about passive offense vis a vis RaO. You can seriously almost just go AFK during a match as a thumper and it'll still work out fine. Just get one of those little glass bird things that bounce up and down so it can hit the RaO button; a la Homer Simpson. Maybe grab a second one for hammer bash. Crushing and Besital Mauling were pretty much just extra credit to begin with. You don't really even have to use either to win.

Legendary Shiz · Apr 05, 2007, 07:36 PM // 19:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

In terms of the pressure Disrupting Lunge could put on casters it was ridiculous. From the moment you press it it affects the pets very next strike. So you could quite easily interrupt 3/4s skills if the pets attack was timed right. It was way too spammable, although tbh i think it should've been made identical to Distracting Shot.

I personally have a lot of use with this skill, seeing as thumpers used to be one of my all time favorite builds to play, and I really don't see why they would nerf this skill. Yeah, it was some good pressure and an interupt every 5 seconds is pretty tight. However, pet mechanics are not dependable enough to actually GET interupts every 5 seconds. Shoot it takes more than that just for the pet to switch targets with you. Unless you're constantly camping a target, the interupting was no where near dependable.

MSecorsky · Apr 05, 2007, 07:39 PM // 19:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siddious

If they are supposedly 'Extremely Potent', then why is it that Mesmers only use a select few skills like Diversion in PVP but nothing else.

I would even say that if Diversion was taken out of PVP altogether, Mesmers would die out in PVP.

Thank you for playing "People Who Have No Idea What They're Talking About!"'

Maybe I'm not the typical mesmer, but I only added Diversion to my dom build recently with what looked like a recent surge in touchies in AB (title building). I usually run an Illusion/Inspiration build anyhow, which is quite lovely when you want to see an assassin's head explode for no visible reason. So no, Diversion doesn't make the mesmer.

But it does break the touchies...

ensoriki · Apr 05, 2007, 07:48 PM // 19:48

Honestly Paragons are currently nothing unless tehres a large ammount of them, BUT thats just about it.

Go face a paragon with no other paragons and no monk and pretty much any class will take it down...even by bloody accident.

Face a paragon with a monk, just go for the monk the para is nothing.
Theres a reason ppl think paragons suck, there only use is in multi paragon builds, where if you fixed the Paragon skills affecting other Paragons thered be no damn problem, and they be even WORSE than before.

mmmkay?